讲座 Talk · Leo Feigin | 苏联新爵士黄金年代讲座暨放映 Golden Years of Soviet New Jazz

本文为第四届OCT-LOFT国际爵士音乐节讲座录音记录

由工作人员根据现场录音整理,未经允许,不得转载

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2014年10月21日讲座现场。摄影:陈琳

讲座简介 Introduction of the talk

新音乐是什么?时间、地点、原因和形成的过程又是什么? 

新音乐对于任何专注于音乐的机构来说,都是一门新哲学、一种新视野及新态度。在这充满了各种可能性的时代背景下,新音乐很好地诠释了对任何声乐都不抱偏见并保持开放的态度这一观点。这是一种融汇不同经历、鼓励各种影响、打破常规界限、禁忌老生常谈的音乐。它是包罗万象而非专制单一的。它赞颂着多样性的同时又忠实于真实的自我。即兴创作为其中最为精彩的一个环节,它将作曲家及表演者的角色逐渐融汇为一体,这也正说明了音乐人个性的重要性。新音乐诞生于一场特殊的抗议中,这是一场精神性的崇高抗议,它并不具备以往抗议的政治性及社会性,这是一场反对伪善虚伪、消费主义的抗议,是一场反对平常乏味、墨守成规的抗议。这也正是新音乐能够在美国及包括俄罗斯在内的一些欧洲国家找到利于其自身发展的滋生地的缘故。 

What is new music? When, where, why and how has it emerged? 

New music is a new philosophy, new outlook, and new attitude towards any organization of sounds. It's a totally open, unprejudiced view of any piece of music where anything is possible. No conventions, no limitations. It is the music where any alien experiences welcome, where all influences are encouraged. The only thing that is taboo is clichés. This is the music that questions but doesn't give any answers. It is inclusive and not exclusive. It celebrates diversity while remaining true to itself. Since a great part of this music is improvised, the author and the performer merge into one personality. That is why the personality of the performer becomes so important. New music has emerged out of a protest - however, a protest of a special kind. It is neither political nor social. It is spiritual; it is a protest against hypocrisy and consumerism, against banality and conformity. No wonder that new music found such favorable soil in USA and some European countries, including Russia. 

Leo Feigin

讲者简介 Introduction of the Speaker

Leo Feigin在1979年创办了Leo Records唱片公司,他同样也以广播艺名Aleksei Leonidov而闻名。他来自俄罗斯,后又移民到英国生活。在1970到1980年期间,Leo建立的唱片公司和世界著名Ganelin三重奏的联系尤其密切。 

Leo Records是英国一家爵士乐唱片公司,该公司除了发行来自英美两国音乐家的素材之外,还发行俄罗斯爵士乐专辑。 

这个唱片公司参与了许多实验音乐专辑的制作及发行,它也与这些发行专辑的艺人们有着密切的联系:他们并没有与艺人们签订合约,而是把他们的素材整理发行成一张张独立的专辑。截止至2010年,他们的唱片目录已经有超过700个作品。 

Leo Records旗下有四个子公司,包括Leo Records、Leo Lab (Leo Records Laboratory)、Golden Years of New Jazz和FeetFirst Records。 

Leo Records was founded in 1979 by Leo Feigin, who also known under his broadcasting name Aleksei Leonidov, a Russian immigrant to Britain. The label was particularly associated with establishing the world reputation of the Ganelin Trio during the 1970s and 1980s. 

Leo Records is an English jazz record label, which releases Russian jazz in addition to material from American and British musicians. 

It is generally associated with more experimental releases. The label has a close relationship with the artists who release material on the label; it does not sign artists to contracts, but releases their material on a single-album basis. By 2010 there were over 700 titles in Leo Records catalogue. Leo Records comprises four labels: Leo Records, Leo Lab (Leo Records Laboratory), Golden Years of New Jazz, and FeetFirst Records. 


苏联新爵士黄金年代讲座暨放映

Golden Years of Soviet New Jazz

讲者 Speaker:Leo Feigin / 现场翻译 Interpreter:李奇 Archie / 时间 Date:2014.10.21


主持人 Host:

各位朋友,欢迎您来到旧天堂书店。今晚是第四届OCT-LOFT国际爵士音乐节第14晚,即将举行是《苏联新爵士黄金年代》讲座及放映,主讲人为Leo Feigin,来自Leo Records。讲座语言为英文,现场配有翻译,翻译者为李奇。 

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Old Heaven Books. Tonight is the 14th night of OCT-LOFT Jazz Festival. We’ll be honored to have the lecture “Golden Years of Soviet New Jazz” and the speaker will be Leo Feigin from Leo Records. Leo will speak in English and Archie will be his English-Chinese interpreter.

讲座中将放映两部关于俄罗斯新音乐的纪录短片,分别是《Sergey Kuryokhin与Pop Mechanics:天赋的疯狂》和《俄罗斯新音乐之父:Slava Ganelin》。

After the lecture we will watch two short documentary movies of Soviet New Music. One is “Sergey Kuryokhin & Pop Mechanics - Divine Madness” and the other is “Slava Ganelin - Father of Russian New Music”.

让我们欢迎Leo Feigin!首先,我们将会播放一段介绍讲者Leo的影片。

Now, let’s welcome Leo Feigin! Firstly, let’s watch a short introduction video about Leo Feigin.


视频 Video:Leo Feigin介绍短片(Introduction of Leo Feigin)


Leo:

各位晚上好。很抱歉我不会说中文,但我有一位出色的翻译者,李奇,他就坐在那里。所以他能够帮助我与大家沟通。现在你们已经对我了如指掌,而我却对你们一无所知。但是随着我们相谈入夜,我或许会对你们有进一步的了解。

Good Evening. I’m very sorry that I don’t speak Chinese, but I have a very able translator, Archie, there he is. So he will help me. Now you know everything about me but I know nothing about you. But with the time, maybe I shall come to know you, as the evening progresses.

我们今天在这里是想要谈谈新音乐,尤其是苏联及俄罗斯的新音乐。但在话题开启之前,我首先想说的是,我不是一个音乐人,我也不是音乐的学者,我甚少阅读关于音乐的书籍,甚至可以说我在音乐方面是非常无知的,但是,我有我自己的见解。因此,我建议大家接下来在听我说话的时候,抱持一种批判的态度。你们最好时刻问自己:“这老头到底在说什么啊?”在英语里我们常称之为“take it with a pinch of salt”,也就是你们对我说的不能全然相信,而应保有一种半信半疑的态度。

OK, we are here to talk about New Music and about Soviet and Russian New Music. But the first thing I want to say is that I’m not a musician, I didn’t study music, I read very few books about music, and I’m very ignorant about music. But I have my own opinion. And I suggest you have to listen to me critically. You have to ask yourself all the time:“What is this man talking about?” In English it means that you should take it with a pinch of salt.

好的,那么我们进入话题。我们可以打个比方:当我们看一个人体的时候,我们可以把它分为三个部分。第一部分,就是从脚到腰,也就是“下半身”。第二个部分,从腰到脖子,你的五脏六腑。第三个部分就是那剩下的,头脑,思想。有一种音乐是吸引下半身的,那么你会得到什么呢?比如说流行乐、摇滚乐。还有一种音乐是吸引更上面的部分的,更接近心灵的,在这种情况下,你会产生一些感觉,比如爵士乐。这种音乐可能和下半身有点关系,可能也和你的头脑有所关联。但是这世上还有那么一种音乐,既不吸引下半身,也不吸引你的心灵,它就只对你的头脑产生强大的吸引力。这种音乐可能是古典乐,可能是前卫音乐,也可能是歌剧。这种音乐和下半身没有半点关系。或许吸引你的头脑的音乐会和心灵产生共鸣,而和下半身则不可能。

OK, If you look at a human body, you can divide it into three parts. The first part is from the feet up to here (waist); the second part is from the waist up to here (neck); and the third part is the rest (head). So there is a kind of music that appeals to this lower part. And what you get? You get pop, rock music. There is some kind of music that appeals to the higher part, somewhere here (heart). And in this case, you’ll have feelings. You have music like Jazz. This music maybe has a little bit from there (lower part) and maybe a little bit from there (head). But when you have music which doesn’t appeal to the lower part and doesn’t appeal to this part (heart), it appeals to this part (head) only, and in this case, you have music like maybe classical, avant-garde, maybe opera. The music appeals to here (head), has nothing to do with music that appeals to there (lower part). This (head) and this (heart), they can come in contact. But this (head) and this (low part), no.

那么我们就进入到另一个问题。比如当我们谈到爵士,我们可以说……当然,我们都喜欢它。我们喜欢坐在那里听,跟着一起唱,我们喜欢它的韵律等等的。但这种音乐本质上是封闭的,因为它有它的局限性。它有节奏,有音调,有和弦,有音律……而当一个音乐家在演奏这种音乐的时候,他就不能再表现任何其它的东西了,因为他必须在它特定的节奏、音调、和弦里面去演奏,他被禁锢在一个封锁的系统里面而无法逃离。

And now we come to a different question. If we talk about jazz, we can say that… well, of course we all love it. We like to sit, to sing. We like to listen it, you know, to listen to the rhythm and everything. But this music is closed because it has limitation. It has rhythm. It has tonality. It has harmony. It has swing… And when a musician plays this music, he can’t introduce anything else, because a musician has to play in this rhythm, in this tonality, in this harmony, so he is in a closed system. He can’t get out from it.

然后我们就可以开始谈一谈新音乐。什么是新音乐?新音乐就是一种没有任何限制的音乐。没有节奏,没有音调,没有和弦,没有音律。在这种音乐里面,一切都是有可能的,一切都是开放的。这就是为什么我们说新音乐是一种开放的音乐。对于一些没有经验的听者来说,这种音乐可能难以接受。很难去理解究竟什么是新音乐,因为正如我前面提到的那样,它没有节奏、音调、和弦等等。对于这种音乐的接受情况很大程度上取决于你的聆听经验。

And here we come to what is called New Music. What is New Music? New Music is the music which has no limitations. No rhythm, no harmony, no tonality, no swing. Everything is possible. Everything is open. That’s why we say that this is an open music. Maybe it will be difficult for someone who is not experienced. It’s difficult to understand what New Music is because again, it has no rhythm, no tonality, no harmony, very much depends on what you have listened before, on your listening experience. 

Slava Ganelin

如果你回望前苏联的爵士乐历程,你会发现,多少年来,那里的爵士音乐家们年复一年地模仿着美国人。或许他们之中有些和美国人一样厉害,有的甚至超越他们,但他们始终不是在演奏自己的音乐,而只是模仿。一直到70年代初,前苏联终于出现了一群不愿意模仿美国人而开始创造自己的音乐的人——这标志着苏维埃的新音乐进入了一个全新的纪元,而最早创造这种新音乐的、可以称之为“苏维埃新音乐之父”的人,便是Slava Ganelin。你们将会在明晚爵士节的演出中听到他的演奏。

If you look at the history of jazz in the Soviet Union, you will see that for many years, year after year after year, jazz musicians copied Americans. And maybe they were as good as the Americans, maybe even better, but they were playing not their own music, but copying someone else’s music. Here we come to the point when in the beginning of the 70s, there appeared one group in the the Soviet Union which didn’t want to copy Americans and they started to play their own music. This is the beginning of the new era of New Music in the Soviet Union. The father of this New Music, the person who was the first to start to play this New Music was Slava Ganelin whom you will hear in tomorrow’s concert.

以上就是对新音乐的基础介绍。

Well, that’s the basic introduction.

在30年前演奏这种音乐是不容易的,因为它太新了,听众少之又少。然而随着时间的推移,它的观众数量开始不断增加,质量也越来越高,也有越来越多的音乐人开始演奏这种音乐。

It was not easy to play this music 30 years ago, because it was very new and it had very small audience. But with the time, the audience was getting better and bigger and there were many musicians who started playing this music. 

今天你们会看到两部影片,其实这个系列影片一共有十部。这些电影是在八十年代末期,大概1989、1990年拍摄制作的,而且那是一个非常特殊的时期——苏维埃的边界正是在那时向世界豁然敞开,当时的总统戈尔巴乔夫促成了这件事。在那样一个时期,我和我的制作人同事一起去苏维埃拍摄制作了这些电影。你们一会儿会看到关于Sergey Kuryokhin和Slava Ganelin的这两部电影。为什么选择了这两部而不是其他的呢?因为这两部能够让你们感受到前苏联当时的境况,并且你会理解一个音乐人开始创造自己的音乐而不再一味模仿到底意味着什么。

Today, you will see maybe two films. Maybe I should tell you, there are actually ten films. So, these films were made in the end of 80’s, 1989, 1990. And they were made when all of a sudden, the boarder of the Soviet Union was open. It was President Gorbachev who open the boarder and this was when we… I say we, meaning me and my producer, we went to the Soviet Union to make these films. So you will see the films about Sergey Kuryokhin and about Slava Ganelin. Why those two films but not the others? Because they will give you an idea of what was happening in the Soviet Union at that time. And you will see what it means when a musician plays his own music when he is not coping or aping Americans.

当时有两位音乐风格截然不同的艺术家,他们分别是来自列宁格勒的Sergey Kuryokhin和来自维尔纽斯的Slava Ganelin,但他们都代表了当时前苏联音乐的面貌。

So there was these two different artists, Sergey Kuryokhin in Leningrad, Slava Ganelin in Vilnius. They played very different music. And yet these two groups they represented what was happening in the Soviet Union at that time. 

爵士和新音乐只有一个共同点——它们都包含即兴演奏。你可以这样去理解,新音乐是从头到尾全部都是即兴,而在爵士乐里则只含有一小部分。爵士乐的即兴必须基于你先前演奏的主题,所以再一次,你是被限制的。即使是在即兴中,你依然是被限制的。而谈到新音乐,实际上它也并不新了,它只是被命名为“新音乐”而已。它还有许多其他的名字,你可以叫它实验音乐、即兴音乐……额,你们还叫它什么?还有自由爵士、前卫音乐等等。所以这种音乐实际上……据说这种音乐起始于1966年,当时Ornette Coleman让两个乐队在一起直接开始演奏,没有任何预设概念——而这已经是50多年前的事情了。所以说新音乐其实已经很老了,但它给了我们一个去窥探音乐家自身性格的机会。一个音乐家的个性在新音乐中有非常关键的作用,没有个性,就无法演奏新音乐。这可不是爵士。你必须要有你自己的个性,你必须要能表达一些什么,因为那就是“你”!如果没有个性,没有“你”,那你的音乐也必然乏善可陈。

There is only one thing in common between jazz and New Music and that is improvisation. You can think about New Music that it’s all improvised, from the beginning to the end, while in jazz you have only a small part. You have to improvise on the theme which you play and again, you’re limited. Even in your improvisation, you’re limited. When we talk about New Music, in reality it’s not new. It is just called New Music, but it has many names. You can call it experimental, improvised…ah, what else do you call it? You can call it free jazz, avant-garde. So this music actually… they say that this music started in 1966, when Ornette Coleman brought two groups together and started just playing without any preconceived ideas. But that was more than 50 years ago. So New Music in reality is old. But it gives us a chance to see the personality of a musician. The personality of a musician is very important because you can’t play New Music without personality. It’s not jazz. You must have a personality. You must be able to say something. That is “you”! And if there is no personality, there is no “you”, there is nothing to say.

那么观看这两部影片还有什么重要的事情需要注意呢?不要忘了,他们是在一个非常封闭的社会里演奏这种音乐的。这种音乐并不被当局所鼓励,甚至说,演奏它是非常危险的,因为它完全没有被官方认可。当你观看Sergey Kuryokhin的那部影片时,你要知道这种音乐是在一个完全地下的环境中发芽的,并且Sergey Kuryokhin的音乐概念具有强烈的原创性。这样说因为……好吧,他没有模仿任何人,那是他的音乐,而不是任何其他人的。也正因如此,没人可以复制他的音乐。对于The Ganelin Trio(加列宁三重奏)来说,也同样如此。他们创造了一种无法被复制的音乐。前无古人,后无来者。

So what else is important when you watch these films? Do not forget that this music was played in a very closed society. This music was not encouraged by the authorities and it was even dangerous to play this music because it was not officially recognized. When you watch the film about Sergey Kuryokhin, you must know that this music started in the total underground and the idea of Sergey Kuryokhin was very original, because…OK, he didn’t copy anyone so the music was original, it was his music but nobody else’s. And because his music was original, nobody could copy him. The same applies to The Ganelin Trio. They played the music which could not be copied. Nobody could do it.

(鼓掌 Applause)

Sergey Kuryokhin

这种音乐最开始是在地下成长的,而后来也逐渐浮上地面。Sergey Kuryokhin有一个名为“Popular Mechanics(Pop Mekhanika)”的演出项目或者说组合,他的理念特别在于他决定邀请他的各种朋友跨刀,并不一定是音乐家,可以是艺术家、画家等等。他开始把这个演出项目搬上舞台,而每场演出都全然不同。每一场演出都无法被复制,因为每一次参与的人都不同。到后来,他开始接收到不少来自西方国家的邀请,而他也为这个组合加入了更丰富的元素,可以说是穷其可能!比如各种动物……在很多场演出上有诸如马,牛,鹅——对,它们就那样在舞台上飞来飞去……还有坦克!在斯德哥尔摩的一次演出中他搞来了一台坦克,所以那时候“Pop Mekhanika”在坦克上进行了一次户外演出!

So this music in the Soviet Union which was played underground and very gradually it got outside. And the idea of Sergey Kuryokhin and his show, his group which was called “Popular Mechanics(Pop Mekhanika)”, was that he decided to bring together all his friends, not necessarily musicians. They were artists, painters… and he started producing this show and every show was different. Every show could not be repeated because very different people took part every time he performed his “Pop Mekhanika”. And with the time, since he started to get invitation to perform in the west, he used to bring to his group, to his show, everything that was possible. Animals…on many shows there were horses, cows, geese, they were flying on the stage… and tanks! He was performing in Stockholm and he managed to get a tank. So “Pop Mekhanika” was in the open on a tank!

如果说Sergey Kuryokhin是新音乐这头“巨怪”的其中一面,那么在它的另一面就是Slava Ganelin,创造着与他完全不同却同样极具个人风格的音乐。由于Slava后来去了以色列,The Ganelin Trio解散了。而在这段没有搭档的孤独时期,他带来了一个全新的、非常原创的概念——他成为了“一个人的交响乐团”。他演奏了……我都数不清了,他演奏了太多的乐器。他演奏钢琴、合成器、扬琴、鼓……总而言之,这就是他独创的概念——“一个人的交响乐团”。或许你们在今天或明天可以一窥其真容。

So that was one side of the huge specter of New Music while Slava Ganelin was on the other side, producing utterly original music of his own. And when The Ganelin Trio fell apart because Slava went to Israel. Well, he found himself without his partners. He was alone and he introduced a new, a very original concept: he became “one-man-orchestra”. And he plays…ah…I don’t know, he plays lots of instruments. He plays the piano of course, and synthesizer, dulcimer, drums. ..So it is his kind of new concept - “one-man-orchestra”. Maybe you will see a small part of it tomorrow, or maybe today.

现在的Ganelin Trio与Leo Feigin

而现在,距离当时已经过去了三十年。在曾经的苏维埃,现在的俄罗斯,新一代演奏新音乐的年轻音乐人正在崛起,其中最杰出的代表,就是Alexey Kruglov和Oleg Yodanov。你们也将在明晚的演出中看到他们,而最值得一提的是,这两代音乐人将在一起演奏。

Well, now it’s been thirty years, and in the Soviet Union - what was Soviet Union, in Russia-there is a new generation of musicians who play this New Music. Some of the best representatives of this music are Alexey Kruglov and Oleg Yodanov. And you will see them tomorrow as well. But what is happening is that the first generation is playing with the second generation. They play together now. 

我想我现在应该要停下来了。如果大家有任何问题请提出来,我会试着回答。或者说我们先来播放影片,在那之后你们也许也会有疑问。那么我们来播放影片吧。

I think that it’s reasonable to stop now and tell you that maybe if you have some questions, I shall try to answer. Maybe you will see the film and maybe after that you will have some questions. So let’s start.

Leo:

Are you still alive? (laugh) Ok, maybe now you have some questions, maybe about what you saw.

你们还活着吗?(笑)那么,或许现在你们有问题要问我了?或许是关于影片的?

 

观众1 Audience 1:

谢谢你,Leo。谢谢你们告诉我们什么是新音乐。但我觉得新音乐挺疯狂的,不是吗?我还是不太能理解它。我想问的是,如果说这是一场即兴的音乐会,那么主旋律是由谁来确定的?是现场确定的,还是之前有排练?

Thank you, Leo. Thank you for telling us what New Music is. But I think New Music is crazy, right? I still can not understand it…I was wondering that even though the concert was all improvisation, who was the one to set the theme? Was the theme decided during the concert or was it rehearsed before? 

 

Leo:

这是一个非常好的问题。你可能已经注意到了,这部影片的名字是《天赋的疯狂(Divine Madness)》。它本身就是一场疯狂的表演!或许Kuryokhin所呈现出来的就是他当下的感受。然后“天赋的疯狂”这个词组是来自于一篇演出后的乐评,一个英国的乐评人写下了这个词。当然,这并不是一种非常典型的新音乐。但这部影片向你展示的,是在当时的苏联上演的这样一场演出。它并不是那么地着重于新音乐,就如你所看到的,它更像一场时尚秀,各种古怪的东西都聚集在舞台上,并且所有的事件都在同时发生。但当然,就音乐性而言,它并不是非常具有代表性的新音乐。或许在你看完Slava Ganelin的影片之后,你会对新音乐有个更好的理解。因为他们两位站在全然不同的两个角度,在他们这两极之间,还有许多其他的音乐和故事。

It’s a very good question. But you probably noticed that the film is called “Divine Madness”. It was a mad show! Because at that time maybe Kuryokhin felt like this. And this phrase “Divine Madness” it was a title of a review after this performance. One English critic wrote “Divine Madness”. Of course it is not very typical of New Music. But this film shows you the event that was happening in the Soviet Union. It was not so much about New Music, as it was, you saw it, a fashion show, some strange things on the stage and these events were happening at the same time. But of course, musically, it wasn’t very representative of New Music. Maybe when you see the film about Slava Ganelin, you will get a better idea of New Music. Because they are on different, completely different angles and in between there’s a lot of other music, a lot of other events.

 

听众1 Audience 1:

我想再问一个问题。我有朋友在北京玩一种叫“噪音”的音乐,他现在可以去英国伦敦表演,但都是在地下的。在中国有很多人都不懂得欣赏,包括我在内。我觉得无论是演奏还是欣赏这种音乐,难度都很大。我想知道,乐手在即兴中是如何互相配合、如何呼应主题的?我们又应该如何去欣赏呢?因为文化是如此不同,像刚刚的俄罗斯电影我们就很多是看不懂的,很难理解。

I have another question. I have a friend in Beijing doing this kind of music called “noise” and he is able to go to London to perform. But the shows are all underground. A lot of people in China don’t appreciate this music, including me. I think this kind of music is hard both to play and to enjoy. And I wonder how do they co-operate with each other in the band? And how do they express the theme? And how should we enjoy it? There’s also a problem about cultural differences. Just like this Russian movie you played just now, I didn’t quite get it. 

 

Leo:

那么,首先,新音乐也有好有坏。你朋友在英国的演出由于我并不了解(所以无法评价)。但确实存在着一些非常非常棒的新音乐现场,也有那么一些演出到最后什么也没发生。有时候一群人试图共同创造些什么,结果却一无所获。甚至在非常棒的乐手之间,也不是每次都尽如人意。有时候它就自然地发生了,有时候就什么都没有。

Well, to begin with, New Music can also be good and bad. So the show in England your friend went, we don’t know what kind of show it is. But there are very very good performances of New Music. And there are also performances where nothing happens. When people try to create something together, sometimes it just doesn’t happen. Even with very good musicians it does not happen every time. Sometime it happens, sometime it doesn’t.

 Daniel Barenboim

Daniel Barenboim

但是我应该跟你讲一个小故事。每年在英国广播电台都会有一档连续三集的节目,BBC邀请名家来做讲座。他们邀请的可能是物理学家、医生、音乐家或者别的领域的著名人物。节目的最后15分钟是提问环节。几年前,BBC邀请了Daniel Barenboim。他是一位非常非常著名的古典乐指挥家。我当时正好在我的厨房……那是一个早晨,我一边坐着吃着早餐一边听着节目。他讲到了音乐的方方面面,唯独一点除外——关于即兴音乐他只字未提。我当时就很纳闷,整整三期节目,一个字也不提,这可能吗?为什么竟然没有人对此提问?然而就在节目结束前的三分钟,一位英国非常著名的钢琴手提问了。他叫Julian Joseph,是一名黑人钢琴手。他问Barenboim:“您已经讲了三天了,却并未提到任何关于即兴音乐的东西,为什么会这样呢?”睿智的Barenboim回答道:“你要知道,即兴是音乐中最高、最顶级的层次。它是终极的成就。我无法去讲述它,我还没到那境界。”这就是这个故事

But I shall tell you a little story. In England, every year on British Radio, there’s a set of programs, three programs. BBC invites some very well-known person to give lectures. They invite maybe physicist, doctor, musician or someone else. This person gives a lecture to the audience and then there’s about 15 minutes for questions. Several years ago, BBC invited Daniel Barenboim. He is a very very famous conductor of classical music, very well-known. And I was listening to his lecture in my kitchen…it was in the morning, I was sitting, having breakfast. He was talking about all the aspect of music, except one — he didn’t say a word about improvisation. And I was thinking, is it possible that he, in all three lectures, not a word about improvisation? How come nobody ask a question? And literally three minutes before the end of the show, there was a question from a very well-known piano player in England. He is a black piano player, Julian Joseph. He said to Barenboim, “You’ve been speaking for three days but didn’t say a word about improvisation. How is it possible?” And the great mind Daniel Barenboim, he said, “You know, improvisation is the top, the very top of what can be achieved in music. It’s the ultimate. I can’t do it. I’m not good enough.” That’s the story.

 

观众1 Audience 1:

谢谢。

Thank you.

 

(鼓掌 Applause)

 

Leo:

好的,那么我就接下来要播放的影片讲几句。它是关于Slava Ganelin的一部影片。作为一名音乐制作人,我被他的音乐和理念深深影响。他的音乐帮助我形成了自己的哲学体系。我成为一名制作人,并制作了很多很多的唱片。

Ok, then I shall say several words about the next film. It’s about Slava Ganelin. As a music producer, I was influenced by his music and his ideas. His music helps me to formulate my philosophy. I became a record producer and I produced a lot of CDs, a lot of records. 

在前面我曾和你们讲到关于身体三个部分的音乐比喻。自从我接触Ganelin的音乐以来,我便开始只专注于寻找一样东西。我寻找的是心灵和头脑之间的平衡。我觉得要找到这种平衡是非常困难的,因为99%的音乐要么太“下”,要么太“上”了,而平衡却非常罕见。我认为,Ganelin的音乐找到了这种平衡。

In the beginning, I was telling you about three parts in the human body. Since then I was looking for only one thing. I was looking for a balance between this (head) and this (heart). I think it’s very difficult to find this balance, because 99% of it goes neither that way (lower part) or this way (head), but the balance is the most difficult thing. I think Ganelin’s music just hit the balance.

 

视频 Video:Slava Ganelin - Father of Russian New Music (《俄罗斯新音乐之父:Slava Ganelin》)

 

Leo:

或者在你们思考要问我什么问题的时候,我该再和你们讲一些关于The Ganelin Trio的故事。他们为什么如此具有独创性呢?他们的演奏方式又究竟有什么特别呢?

Maybe while you’re thinking about the question, I shall tell you a little bit more about The Ganelin Trio. Why were they so original? What was so special about their way to play?

The Ganelin Trio (Photo by Mephisto)

很多爵士乐手可能会每天都排练。他们每天都弹奏一样的东西,他们希望自己的音乐听起来更好。所以他们每天排练,也确乎有所长进。然而The Ganelin Trio则有一个完全不同的准则:演过的内容就绝不再重复!每当你站到舞台上,你就必须演奏新的东西!永远不要重复自己!因此,他们的音乐才如此的新,如此具有原创性,而他们的每一场演出也不可复制,独一无二。

If you look at jazz musicians, they may rehearse everyday. They are playing the same thing and they want to sound better. So every day they rehearse so that they seems to sound better. But The Ganelin Trio had another principle: never play the same thing twice! Every time you get on the stage, make it new! Never repeat yourself! So that was so new and so original. Then every performance of The Ganelin Trio was unrepeatable, was so unique.

另一方面,这个三重奏从来都不会仅仅是为了演奏而演奏。举个例子好了,有一些演奏新音乐的乐手他们从未谋面也能在一起演奏,他们一起试图创造一些新东西。但The Ganelin Trio每次站上舞台,他们心中都已经有一个概念,一个关于他们大致想要呈现什么的想法,而且每一次都不同。这就是为什么他们从来不会演奏那些爵士乐里现成的曲目,那种四五分钟或者十来分钟的。他们演奏的是组曲,一首就45分钟!

Another thing is the trio never played just for the sake of playing. For example, well, musicians who play New Music they can play with each other. They have never seen each other before. They get together and they try to create something. But The Ganelin Trio, every time they got on the stage, they had a concept, a main idea of what they wanted to do and every time this idea was different. That’s why The Ganelin Trio didn’t play songs. They didn’t play short compositions like in jazz, for four or five minutes, or maybe ten minutes. They played suites. One song, 45 minutes!

 

(观众发出笑声 laugh from audience)

 

是的,这确实值得一笑!让我来给你讲另一个故事。

Yeah, that was a good laugh. I’ll tell you another story.

有一回The Ganelin Trio在一个欧洲的音乐节上表演。同台的有一位身材健硕的美国的黑人小号手,名叫Ted Curson。他被安排在The Ganelin Trio之后上台演出。他上前问道:“你们要演奏几首曲子呀?”他们回答:“就一首。”Ted Curson听罢便发出了大笑:“哈哈哈!就一首!”于是,当The Ganelin Trio演完了他们的那整整45分钟的“一首歌”,离开了舞台,轮到Ted Curson上台开始演奏的时候,一半的观众都走掉了!这可是我亲身经历,亲眼所见的。

Once The Ganelin Trio performed in some festival in Europe. And one American black musician, the trumpet player, Ted Curson, a big guy. He was supposed to play after The Ganelin Trio. He asked Ganelin Trio, “ How many songs are you going to play?” And they said, “Only one.” And Ted Curson was like “Ha-ha-ha, one song!” So The Ganelin Trio played their one song, 45 minutes, then left the stage. Ted Curson got on the stage started playing, half of the audience went away! I witnessed it, I saw it my own eyes.

后来有一次The Ganelin Trio去伦敦表演,我带他们去了著名的Ronnie Scott’s爵士俱乐部。我们走进去,碰巧Ted Curson也在。他也发现了我们,而后起身大喊:“大师们!”

The Ganelin Trio came to London to perform and I took them to the famous Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club. We came into the club, there at one table, Ted Curson was sitting. He saw us, and he got up and said, “Masters!”

总而言之,他们每一首曲子的背后总是有一个概念的。他们演奏了……我不知道,或许是二十,三十,还是四十首组曲,全都各不相同。我呢,大概也做了十来张他们的CD了,当然每张也都是不同的。打比方,有一次他们的想法是……钢琴上有一种和弦叫做“D大调”,他们的那次的想法就是在整整45分钟的演出里一直演奏这个和弦,让它贯穿在各种不同的组合之中,节奏、音调、和音……一切都在不断的变化之中,唯独那个和弦稳坐其中。

So, about one song, there was always an idea. They played the suites, they have, I don’t know, twenty, thirty, forty suites… every time their suite is different. Well, I produced maybe 10 of their CDs and of course every time, it’s different. For example, one of the idea they had was… on the piano, there is a chord called D major. So the idea was to make this chord and hold it for the whole performance, for 45 minutes and to let this chord through all the permutation of rhythms, tonality, harmony… you know, but it was still one chord there all the time, but all the surrounds were different.

The Ganelin Trio《New Wine》(1983, Leo Records)

还有一个例子。他们有一张专辑叫做《新酒》,这标题源于一首名为《旧瓶装新酒》的爵士标准曲,“旧瓶”意为固定的乐曲形式,而“新酒”则是每次演奏的不同内容。他们的演奏完全取决于当下的一切,比如观众、天气、温度亦或是他们的心情。于是有一次我在伦敦碰见了这么一个人。那时我刚发行了这张叫《新酒》的唱片,在演出之前,报幕说他们将演奏名为《新酒》的曲子。在黑胶唱片里本有一长段Chekasin的独奏,美不胜收的萨克斯独奏,起承转合,非常精彩。在他们整个演完之后,这个人跑过来哭着对我说:“我一直在等着,那段独奏哪去了!”我们的反应则是:“什么独奏?”

Or for example they had a CD called “New Wine”. And this title came from a jazz standard which says “Old Bottles New Wine”. The bottle is like the form of the song, but the content is different every time. And it all depends on the audience, depend on the climate, the temperature, on their mood… So, I met one person in London, that was when I released the LP “New Wine”. It was announced that before the performance they would play a composition called “New Wine”. On the LP, there was a long solo by Chekasin. A beautiful saxophone solo with developments, fantastic. So they played this “New Wine”, the composition. When they finished, there was this man, who came to me, he was crying, “I’ve been waiting for that solo!” And we said, “Which solo?”

这些故事就向你们说明了我为什么说他们每次的演奏都是全新的。现在轮到你们提问啦!

This idea illustrates to you what it means to play new, to make it new every time they played. Now your question!

 

听众2 Audience 2:

这个视频我们是第一次看,我想您一定看过很多遍,我想请问您,这次再看有什么不一样的感受吗?

This video is new to us, but I believe that you must have watched it for several times. How do you feel this time? Is it different from before?

 

Leo:

一切都不一样,从头到尾都不一样!

Everything is different, from the beginning to the end!

 

听众2 Audience 2:

那你会对里面的某些段落比较熟悉吗?我意思是,比如随便一首歌,我总能记得一些什么,但是关于这个视频我什么的记不得,因为太多乐器了,而且有些部分我根本找不到节奏!所以我很好奇,你作为一个看过很多次的人,对它有什么不同的感受?

Is there anything that you become familiar with? I mean, for a normal song, I can at least remember something, but for this video, I can’t memorize anything, because there were so many instruments. And sometimes I don’t feel any rhythm at all! So I want to know, how do you feel about it when you watch it again and again and again?

 

Leo:

好的,我会告诉你。因为我看过非常多他们的演出,在他们音乐的熏陶之下成长。像你这样听了一次两次的,当然比较难说出个中区别。当你看了很多演出,积累了足够的量的时候,你才会从中发现特别令你惊叹的东西。不过他们的音乐有一点特别之处,就是当他们开始演奏之后,通常有百分之十的观众在演出的前15分钟就离场了,但是那些坚守到最后的听众,会在结束时惊呼:“啊!我们明白他们在做什么!”

Well, I’ll tell you. Because I have seen many of their performances. I was brought up by their music. Of course if you listen to their performance only once or twice, you can’t tell the difference. It’s only when you have heard many performances then you can say “Wow!”. But what is special about their music is that when they start playing, during the first 15 minutes usually 10 percent of the audience would leave, but those who survive to the end, by the end of it they would say: “Yes! We understand what they were trying to do!”

The Ganelin Trio《Ancora da Capo》(1997, Leo Records)

我给你举另外一个例子吧。在音乐家之间有一个常用的演奏方法,就是把一首既有的曲子不断地解构,分解成更小的、一个一个的部分,你知道,直到最后归于虚无。但The Ganelin Trio不这么玩,他们有一张CD叫做《Ancora da Capo》,大意是“开始的开始”。当你一开始听的时候,你听到零碎的声音,但你完全摸不着头脑;渐渐地听下去,你会感觉越来越熟悉,尽管你还是不知道那具体是什么;随着音乐继续,直到最后,你会发现,那是阿根廷探戈!他们一直在演奏阿根廷探戈,但是他们并非始于解构,而是重构。从无到有,一个声音一个声音地建构,最后出来,阿根廷探戈。这就是一个关于他们演出的想法的例子。

I’ll give you another example. It is a very well known approach. Musicians they play a theme, they play a composition, and they try to deconstruct it, they break it into smaller, smaller, smaller parts, you know, until maybe there is nothing left. But The Ganelin Trio, they have one CD called “Ancora da Capo”, which roughly means “begin from the beginning”. So you start listening to it and hear sounds, sounds you don’t quite understand. And then as you listen, you realize this is something familiar. You don’t know quite what it is but it’s familiar. As the music progresses, when it comes to the end then you realize, that’s Argentinean tango! They were playing Argentinean tango, but they started not with deconstruction, but with reconstruction. From nothing, sound by sound by sound, and then there are Argentinean tango. So there’s an example of what the idea they had when they were playing.


听众3 Audience 3:

我想提问。但在提问之前,我想先与大家分享我对新音乐的感受。刚才视频里的展示,我觉得非常震撼、狂野、令人惊讶,力量十足也非常勇敢。我非常喜欢这个三重奏,也非常期待明天的演出,虽然我自己是工作人员。

I have a question. First of all, I want to share my feeling for the music. Just now, I think it was astonishing, wild and surprising, very powerful and brave. I love the trio very much and I’m very looking forward to tomorrow’s show, although I’m the staff.

我觉得新音乐给我们留下了空间去感受和思考,从它身上也能反映出我们自己的本质。我觉得这是这种音乐非常不可思议的一点。

I think New Music just leaves us space to feel and think. And it also reflects what kind of people we are. And I think this is a very amazing thing about this kind of music.


Leo:

没错,是的!说的非常好,亲爱的。新音乐给你充分的空间去展开幻想。它不会一语道尽,但却给你一个开阔想象的机会,一个思考的机会,这是普通的爵士乐做不到的——是的我们一样可以听,可以享受它,但它在心中却不会留下任何痕迹。这也是我执着于寻找我刚才所说的那种“平衡”的原因,在头脑和心灵,理性与感性之间的那种平衡。所以我认为最有力量的音乐,就是能找到这种平衡的音乐。

Yes! Yes! Very well said, darling. New Music leaves you a lot of room for your own fantasies. It doesn’t say it all, but it gives you a chance to imagine more, to think about it, while ordinary jazz doesn’t give you this opportunity. Well, we can see it, to enjoy it. It’s entertainment. It leaves nothing for the mind. That’s why what I’m looking for is, again, the balance between mind and heart, rational and feelings. So I think that the strongest music is when you have this balance.


听众3 Audience 3:

谢谢你。我知道你是Leo Records音乐节的策划人,也看过一些关于这个音乐节的视频,看到很多音乐人在你的音乐节上有即兴合作。他们看起来像是相识多年的老友,但是或许那只是他们初次同台。我觉得这也是这种音乐,以及这个音乐节非常妙不可言的一点。

Thank you. I know you have curated the Leo Records Festival and I also saw some clips of the festival. Many musicians were jamming on the stage and it looks like they were friends for many years, but maybe it’s their first time to stand on the same stage. I think this is also a very amazing part of this kind of music, of your Leo Records.


Leo:

是的,我也觉得。非常感谢!

I agree. Thank you very much!


听众3 Audience 3:

我读过你的一些文章,在其中一篇的唱片制作日志里你抱怨了经费不足的问题,无论是政府还是各种组织,给到音乐家的费用都太少了。那么,现今依然是这样的情况吗?你是如何在这样的条件下坚持下来的呢?

I have read your article. You wrote in your record document complaining about that there’s not much money to support the musicians, not much money from the government, or any foundation. Is it still the same today? How can you keep on like this?


Leo:

迎难而上。(笑)就是这样,硬着头皮上呗。

With great difficulties. (laugh) With difficulties, that’s it.


听众3 Audience 3:

好的。真的非常感谢你所做的一切!

So,really thank you very much for what you’ve done!


Leo:

谢谢你!

Thank you!


文本信息 Text Information

来源 Source:讲座录音 Recording of the lecture

编辑 & 翻译 Editing & Translating:李奇 Archie,尹思卜 Midori Yin

校对 Proofreading:陈力思 Johannes Chan