2024.6.21

受访者 Interviewee
Alan Bishop

采访者 Interviewer
Anlin

Anlin - AL; Alan Bishop - AB

“这是一个单向的系统：从西方流向世界各地，”Alan Bishop 在谈及全球音乐的流动时如是说。Alan Bishop 想起有一次 Radio Republik Indonesia (RRI) 邀请他录制一句介绍语，并请求他帮忙联系美国的 NPR (National Public Radio) 进行电台节目交换。Alan Bishop 帮了这个忙，但 NPR 拒绝了这一提议，而这样的回应虽令人失望，却并非意料之外。不过，Alan Bishop 在得知目前电台节目交换在独立的网络电台之间十分盛行，许多电台还会播放 Radio Alhara 上关注巴勒斯坦的节目 (节目包含音乐、讨论和宣讲) 时，他十分开心。

Alan Bishop 在音乐版图上的旅程始于他那充斥着阿拉伯旋律的黎巴嫩家庭。从 1980 年代开始，他在环球旅行中录制不同地区的电台声音，捕捉各地独一无二的声之图景。如今，作为 Sublime Frequencies 的运营者之一——这可是将 Omar Souleyman 这样的音乐人介绍给西方听众的厂牌，Alan Bishop 对西方典范以外的音乐依旧执着。他对多样化听觉体验的追寻来源于他对希望与灵感的追寻，以及对文化同质化的坚定拒绝。

Alan Bishop 在第八届明天音乐节作为乐队 Dwarfs of East Agouza 的一员进行演出。得益于明天音乐节的支持，本次对话于 2024 年 5 月 24 日的下午在旧天堂书店展开。

AL: 你对所谓“世界音乐”产生兴趣的时间线是怎样的呢？

AB : 应该是我们的祖父母开的头。我的弟弟 (注: Richard Bishop) 和我有一半黎巴嫩血统，在我们小时候，我们的祖父母总是在播放阿拉伯音乐。我们每次去他们家里都会听他们的卡带和唱片。所以我们小时候就意识到我们有一半的家人来自另外的地方。我对那里的音乐很好奇——虽然我们小时候会觉得那些音乐有点无聊，对它不太感兴趣，但当我们长大了之后，我们听它听得越多，就越觉得有意思。那是我们对世界其他地方的音乐产生兴趣的出发点。我们在美国长大，所有东西都是以英语为中心的 (Anglocentric)。美国，加拿大，英国，你能在电台听到的就这些地方的东西。没有法语，没有西班牙语，啥都没有。当我们探索非洲，亚洲和南美洲的音乐时，我们也在发掘法国，德国，意大利等地的音乐。到了我们 18、19 岁的时候，我们就在听世界各地的很多音乐了。从此一发不可收拾。

AL: 你跟你的弟弟在八十年代中周游世界了，对吗？Sublime Frequencies 上的电台系列很多都是你那阵子旅游录下来的。

AB: 对的，我们是从 80 年代开始的。1983 年，我们第一次旅行到了北非，摩洛哥，西班牙，在欧洲游了一遍。然后我们去了埃及。我们在 80 年代还去了东南亚，一直在旅途中。后来我们做了巡演，在 90 年代去了日本。即便在东南亚和中东旅行时，我们也有演出。在此之后便一直持续了下去。电台拼贴系列是我 1983 年在摩洛哥开始的，也一直延续了下去。每次我旅游的时候我都会带一个收音机。对我而言，电台是理解旅游地音乐的关键。我会录下音乐，然后去卖磁带的商店问“这是什么？我想买这个。”他们就会给我相对应的磁带。我通过听电台学习，也把电台节目录下，然后进行拼贴。

AL: 你们在 Sun City Girls 中有用到许多在旅游时接触到的音乐里的律动和旋律，是吗？

AB: 这一直是我们的操作，当然还有很多其他的东西。但我将其称作诸多“表达的武器” (weapon of expression) 的一种。我们自由地做自己想做的事情。我们所有人都是。我们有着各种各样的点子，但当我们作为团体时，我们可以理解彼此痴迷的事情。我们对很多不同的东西痴迷，并将它们都融入我们的宇宙中，这是非常开放无边的。

AL: 这种痴迷来自哪里？

AB: 好问题。对我而言，痴迷是当你对某事拥有强烈的感受，并想要让这种感受发展下去。痴迷可以是一种爱好，可以是一门艺术，或是一种哲学。我们把这一切都包含进去了…...我们对于感兴趣的一切想知道的越来越多。在 1980 年代有网络之前，我们还很年轻，如果我们想要了解比方说爪哇或巴厘的音乐，我们就要去阅读书籍。你得去读书，找唱片，听唱片。我们就像是学生一样。但我们也是我们自己的学校。没有别的人来教我们，我们要这样去自学。你也会遇见许多人，从他们身上学到东西。这就是我所说的痴迷的意思——对某事抱有强烈的兴趣，对其有信念，想要做更多。它是动力，也是启发。

AL: Sun City Girls 还有哪些“表达的武器”？

AB: 我们爱民乐，我们总是在寻找能将民乐扩展的方法，甚至是加入电子乐器。还有爵士，自由爵士，自由音乐。以及表演艺术，戏剧。我们还会做具体音乐 (Musique concrète)、声音即目的 (sound for sound’s sake)、噪音。总之，每次我们演出，我们的音乐都会变化。我们要训练我们的观众，让他们接受改变。所以，如果他们来看演出，想要听过去听过的东西，这些东西不一定会出现，我们会做些别的。但最终他们会尊重这一点，也会开始期盼看到不一样的东西。我们还是会有一批观众，但是他们信奉我们的自由，所以这对我们来说是相当好的一个情况。

AL: 我在 Habibi Funk 发行的黎巴嫩音乐人 Issam Hajali 专辑内页里看到他提及黎巴嫩人在身份上的挣扎，对阿拉伯人这一身份认同的挣扎。他说起这个是因为有黎巴嫩的右翼人士在内战中与以色列合作...你有类似的体验吗？

AB: 我觉得分不同的情况吧。也许有一些人会有身份上的挣扎，但我想很多人也并没有。身份是身份，你想怎么去设定它都行。对某件事的感想个体可决定的。黎巴嫩人很执着于扩展他们的现实，向世界各地移动。他们非常有生意头脑。在世界各处的黎巴嫩人比黎巴嫩境内的人还要多。有很多黎巴嫩人在南美洲和北美洲。还有许多在西非，在尼日利亚的黎巴嫩人。他们在重塑自身这点上有很强的创造力。

我发觉很讽刺的一件事是，当我移居埃及时，我有很多黎巴嫩的音乐朋友问我为什么我不搬到黎巴嫩去？我说，黎巴嫩不是埃及。埃及比黎巴嫩要丰富多了。还有一点，我的弟弟和我是来自黎巴嫩德鲁兹 (Druze) 家庭——我们没有这方面的宗教信仰，只是血脉上的继承——而德鲁兹人发源于埃及。所以，从本质上来讲，我们在起源上更贴近埃及而非黎巴嫩。黎巴嫩是一个更为现代的国家，德鲁兹人从埃及出来之后去了沙姆 (Sham) 地区，也就是巴勒斯坦，黎巴嫩，叙利亚这一带，有的则去了伊拉克，波斯一带。他们分散到了不同的地方，但是都来源于尼罗河三角洲，开罗这一带。

AL: 说回电台的事，你还会随身带着收音机吗？

AB: 在这趟旅程中并没有。我忘带了。我们去了加拿大，然后回家待了一天，就来 (中国) 了。但每当我去一个新的国家时，我还是会带着收音机，不过通常讲，我会待比较长的时间，这样能获得更多的原材料。我在这里会很忙碌，我会待几天，但要做一个中国电台的mix不太现实，也许将来会做吧。我最近在埃及做了一些拼贴作品，还没有发行，我还有其他需要编辑的材料。材料是不缺的，以后我也会继续收集。我还在做这件事，我很爱做这个。

AL: 你有注意到电台上播放的音乐发生了什么样的变化吗？我爱电台，但是我关注的电台很多是网络电台，比方说有个在伯利恒的巴勒斯坦网络电台叫做 Radio Alhara，但我没有像你一样听过巴勒斯坦的 FM 电台…...

AB: 一切都在改变。我从四十多年前开始对电台上的节目进行录音，当时的电台跟现在是不一样的。音乐在发生改变，每个时代的风格也在发生改变。电台上还有传统老音乐的节目，你可以在上面听到老一点的音乐。但新闻放送的方式，广告，谈话类节目...…这些都随着时间或多或少地现代化了，不过这也取决于你身处何地。

与网络相比，听电台最好的地方在于——网络也很好，你在电脑上打开 Radio Garden 之类的网站就能听到大部分电台了，然而在 10 到 15 年前，要收听这些电台是很难的事情。但当你拿着模拟调频收音机，将节目录到磁带上时，你是受环境所影响的，因为你处在一个地点，而那也是你能得到这些声音的唯一地点。我还对收音机收录的更为实验的那些声音感兴趣——当多个频道互相交错时，会创造出一种独特的声音，在不同的地方这些声音都是独特的。你能将这些由不同可能性构成的组合用在作曲和表演中。收音机真的是一种绝佳的获取原材料的设备。不过一切都在发生变化，也会继续变化下去。信号接收就发生了改变。如今在都市区域中有如此多的频率，在日间是很难找到 AM 电台的，FM 电台倒一直都很容易找到，但是 AM 得到了晚上才比较好找，因为少了频段上的竞争。以前在日间也能很容易找到 AM，但是现在就比较难了。太多事情在发生变化了。

AL: 当我在中国的出租车上收听电台时，我听到的大多是一二十年前的流行歌，我感觉在电台上播放的音乐不是大家会去听的最新的音乐，仿佛因网络的存在，电台上的音乐不再前进。你有留意到类似的事情吗？

AB: 在埃及有这样的现象，有很多不同的电台，各个电台上又有不同的节目。调到某些电台，你就活在了 1950 年代，到 1960 年代，到 1970 年代，可以听到像 Umm Kulthum，Abdel Halim Hafez 这样的歌手，还有一些老的阿拉伯交响乐团。那些电台整天都在放这样的音乐。老一辈的出租车司机喜欢这样的电台，你上了他的车，就进入了他的这个世界。而晚上的出租车司机比较年轻，他们听的是 Maharaganat，这是一种电子沙比音乐 (注: 沙比音乐即 Shaabi，是埃及、摩洛哥、阿尔及利亚等地的街头、婚礼、节庆音乐，而 Maharaganat 是阿拉伯语中的“节日”之意)，一种现代的、疯狂的婚礼/节日音乐。很强劲，很吵，很疯狂。那又是他们所处的现实。还有一些频道会播放 80、90 年代的金曲。也有现代的音乐，西方音乐。看你听哪个电台。还有其他节目——跟其他地方一样，有新闻，有谈话节目，有关于不同议题的不同节目。当然了，在埃及，电台还时常会播放可兰经。新的流行乐对我来说非常地扁平，对我的很多朋友来说也是挺没意思的。我想有很多其他不同年龄段的人都会有这样的感觉，因此他们会去听回他们爱听的那些年代音乐。新的、流行的、top 40 的音乐无法给他们任何的鼓舞，所以他们会去听电台寻找灵感。

AL: 我有一些关于 Sublime Frequencies 的问题——当你发行西方世界以外的音乐时，你会期望这些音乐在西方变得成功吗？我在想的是 Omar Souleyman 这个例子。

AB: 并不。我们对 Omar 取得成功这件事并没有报任何期望。我们并不知道怎么想这一切。我们印的唱片在数量上都达不到一张成功唱片该卖的数量。即便是 Omar，他的成功也更多是因为巡演的关系。我们找到让他巡演的方法之后，他的人气就因欧洲、美国的音乐节而不断上涨，之后就名声远扬了。他也是厂牌上唯一一个取得这样反响的人。我想这跟时机，跟运气等因素相关吧。也许是因为他的音乐更电子、更跳舞、更现代，然而又是传统风格的音乐，再就是他的个性、在台上的魅力，又让人有种新奇的感觉。也许是这些原因使他成为一名更为流行的音乐人，但我们从来都不知道人们会喜欢些什么。我们最首先是做自己想做的，如果人们喜欢，那很好。

我们印的唱片数量也不足以使其成为一张流行的唱片。我们初印数量最多是 2000 份，有时我们会重印，但非常少有。大部分情况下我们会印 1000 张，750 张，500 张，或 1500 张，这样的数量是没法让任何人变流行的。我们也没有在行业内建立人脉，因为我们不喜欢这种操作。我们是一小群朋友，亲人，有一些和我们很亲近的合作者。有的时候会有外来者，我们也会接受他们交给我们的音乐。有的时候一些音乐人想要的更多，但是我们会告诉他们，“不要期望我们能让你成名。你赚不到太多钱的。没有人能赚到钱。这件事不会改变我们的金钱状况，但是我们热爱我们做的事情。我们很乐意发行你的音乐。”他们可以接受，也可以拒绝。我们没有员工，在宣传方面也没有担负很大的责任。我们自己也都是艺术家，音乐人，有自己的创作，所以 (厂牌) 对我们来说更像是一种爱好或者启发。

AL: 我在看一本书，作者是 Jace Clayton，他还有一个名字叫 DJ /rupture。

AB: DJ /rupture, 我知道他。

AL: 其实他在他的书《Uproot: Travels in 21st-Century Music and Digital Culture》中谈到 Omar Souleyman 的成功。他说，在 Sublime Frequencies 发行 Omar Souleyman 的音乐之前，他身边没有听说过 Omar 名字的 dabke 粉丝。所以你们是怎么选出这个艺人来进行发行的？

AB: Mark Gergis 是为 Omar 做这一切的人。他在 90 年代以及 2000 年代初到叙利亚去旅游。他当时有收集磁带，找到了很多 Omar Souleyman 的磁带，也开始听那些磁带。Sublime Frequencies 创建大概两年后，他对我们说，“我收集了一些 Omar Souleyman 的歌。听听吧。我要去叙利亚。如果你们想的话，我可以问他想不想做个发行。如果你们感兴趣的话我们可以试试发行。”我们听了，也很感兴趣。Mark 去了叙利亚，Omar 答应了，我们就发行了他的音乐，反响还不错。但其实是巡演 (给他带来成功)——有一个英国的活动主办决定筹款举办一个巡演，Omar 开始演出，接着事情就变得很疯狂了。人们开始了解这种新型的 dabke 音乐。Mark 也可以选另一个歌手，不选 Omar，也可以是另一个人变得出名，但是他爱的是 Omar 的音乐，这也是 Omar 能得到发行的原因。

AL: 所以这还蛮随机 (arbitrary) 的，你说呢？

AB: 所有事情都是随机的。并非所有人都喜欢一样的音乐。我们都有自己最喜欢的音乐，我们也努力去找寻我们热爱的音乐。因为这样我们就能对其有信念，可以谈论它，可以解释我们为什么想要发行这些音乐——因为我们热爱。如果你不爱 (发行的音乐) ，那就有麻烦了。我们的厂牌就是这样运作的。没有公式。在我们会发行怎样的音乐这件事上也没有模板。我们听到 (喜爱的音乐) 时，我们是会知道的。幸运的是，Hisham (注: Hisham Mayet，Sublime Frequencies 的另一个运营者) 和我，还有其他朋友，在 99% 的情况中对于我们喜爱的音乐是能够达成一致的。当你们能达成一致时，事情会变得容易很多——你们能成为一股力量，没有分裂、争吵。幸运的是我们没有那样的问题。

AL: 从一个更广的角度来看，你认为西方世界以外的艺术家是否能代表他们的文化、场景或风格这件事，是由西方厂牌来决定的吗？

AB: 我不这样认为。当然，有的音乐人会和西方厂牌合作发唱片，那厂牌将会决定如何去宣传这些音乐人。但音乐人也可能做自己的发行，也可以决定是否有必要让西方的听众听到他们。要让西方听众听到你，得找到一扇门，去敲开它，我敢肯定有时音乐人即便不与西方厂牌合作也能做到这一点。现如今找寻音乐也比过去容易多了，但这个行业还有叙事框架仍有其受控的一面。如果要通过像我们这样的西方厂牌向西方听众发行来自伊拉克或印度等地方的音乐，人们总觉得有必要知道一个背景故事，其实不应该这样。他们想知道那个音乐人是谁，他们来自哪里，而这也许是人们感兴趣的事情吧，如果只给出音乐人的名字和歌名，大部分人是不会被满足的。所以你基本上是困在了这个营销游戏里，不得不给出音乐人的背景故事。每当有新鲜的音乐出现，而这些新鲜的音乐来自别的地方，这种营销游戏似乎就很有必要，因为这样记者才会更感兴趣，才会去写那些音乐，电台才有可能会播出这些音乐，唱片店才有可能卖这些音乐。必须有一个故事伴随音乐，不然人们可能不会去买或者写这些音乐。所以从某种程度上来说这是个陷阱。

AL: 为什么你不喜欢这样的游戏呢？

AB: 如果我们不需要总是这样去用政治之类的额外维度去描述音乐会更好，因为音乐本身就该是足够有趣的，不管这音乐是不是在战时创作出来的，又或是在没有钱的情况下创作出来的。这是在远离音乐本身，将关注点放在其他的事情上。但是为什么我们想要发行它？是因为音乐啊。我们不会因为这音乐是来自伊拉克的，就想要去发行它。OK，你要说封面，说他们长什么样，他们来自哪里，他们打过哪场仗。那音乐呢？音乐在这个背景中就被丢失了。这是个问题。同样地，如果我们拿一个名气比较大的音乐人来看，比方说 Bob Dylan 或者 The Rolling Stones，我们会问 Bob 在明尼苏达州的煤矿小镇中长大是什么样的经历吗？他在每张专辑中都只是一个唱美国民谣的人。他的个性可能会被拿来说事，因为现在大家都知道这个。也许在其他国家， (西方音乐人) 被描述的方式跟我们描述来自西方之外的音乐人的方式是一样的。但是音乐总是被隐藏的。而对我们来说，谈论音乐是最重要的事情，因为音乐能够启发其他音乐人——他们受这些音乐影响，而通过将这些音乐里的想法结合自身的方式，创造出属于自己的音乐。这会让音乐不断成长，进化，而这对我们来说非常重要。

AL: 我记得某些 Sublime Frequencies 发行中谈及民间音乐人给音乐加入西方乐器，将音乐电子化等等。当某地变得更“现代化”以及城镇化，音乐行业越发成熟，人们会转向西方的音乐风格吗？

AB: 支持西方音乐风格并将它们传播到世界的是一股强大的力量——他们有钱，有设施结构，有媒体去将它们运送到世界各地。而，比方说，苏门答腊不能将苏门答腊音乐推向美国，但美国可以将美国音乐推向苏门答腊。这其实是一种劣势，因为你很难去理解其他地方的东西。当你研究音乐时，你就会想要去了解，然后当你听到 (那些地方的) 音乐，你就会想，为什么我之前没有听过这样的音乐？这音乐已经有五十年了？我真希望年轻时就听过这样的音乐，也许我思考音乐的方式会截然不同。但这是一种信息战，而信息战里包含了音乐，包含了谁能听到哪些音乐，哪些音乐的影响力比其他音乐的影响力要大。这点从未改变。

发生的改变是现在总是有新的东西涌入，音乐的格式——音乐文件现在是许多人，以及大部分年轻人的首选格式，因为实体的 CD、磁带、唱片已经没有那么广泛了，也没那么便携。有了电子设备，我们就可以轻易在各处播放音乐。音乐风格、潮流，以及哪些音乐被鼓励，哪些音乐不被鼓励，这些都有改变。一直以来，爵士音乐和实验音乐都很少得到支持。现在，在一切事物都那么电子化的情况下，现今音乐人的数量也比往常要多得多。如果你很年轻，做出了新的音乐，你是很难与其他人竞争的。竞争太激烈了，你几乎要自己付钱才能让别人听到你的音乐。这是挺艰难的，但我觉得如果音乐人们不将关注点放在是否能成名或赚钱上，对自己所做的东西有信心，这是最好的。因为那样他们就能做出最真诚的东西，也就能触动到他人。你并不需要靠音乐赚钱或成名。娱乐的世界和音乐的世界是两码事。

AL: 所以你会区分音乐人 (musicians) 和娱乐者 (entertainers)？

AB: 严格说我们都是供人娱乐的，但你知道我的意思。娱乐行业——钱、宣传、电台放送、大规模的分销，所有的权力都集中在这…...这些更多是心理控制和社会工程 (social engineering)，而不是以常人的角度传达自己的所感所想。娱乐行业不关心这些，他们更关心如何卖产品，你就是一个商品而已。不要成为商品，做一个音乐人，用你自己的方式来表达自我，不要担心说自己想说的，也不要担心以自己想要的方式来演奏。

AL: 你有一篇在 Attic Mag 上的文章是给年轻音乐人的建议，你在里面提过，不要依靠音乐来维生。

AB: 对的，那篇文章传播得挺广的，后来还刊登到了很多别的地方，人们似乎都很喜欢它。我是有点傲慢，也有点玩笑的口吻，但是从某种程度上来说我真的相信我写的这一切，反正这一切对我来说都是真实的。那些是我的观点，但似乎有很多人能与其产生共鸣，还挺好的。

AL: 我也很有共鸣。所以你都做过哪些工作来支撑自己呢？

AB: 我都做过哪些工作？我做过的工作有一百万份吧。店员，加油站、唱片厂牌、唱片店、餐馆、咖啡店、厨师、厨师助手、洗碗工…...这些我全都干过。我在一个地图店工作过。我还是在父母开的军用剩余物资商店长大的。我的弟弟和我就是因为从小给父母工作而知道做生意是怎么一回事。在圣诞节假期和暑假的时候，我们的朋友都在玩儿，而我们就得留在店里工作。我还做卖票的…还有很多很多我都不记得是什么了。太多份工作了。

AL: 我还有最后一个问题——在 Sublime Frequencies 多年的发行中，在我的认识中，过去的发行中更多是老一代的音乐人，或者是档案发行，但最近似乎有更多的当代音乐人了？

AB: 我想是有更多的当代音乐人找到了我们，其中有一些音乐人我们非常喜欢，我们就会发行他们的音乐。我们仍有很多老音乐的发行计划，最近也发行了一些老音乐，像 Baligh Hamdi 和 Phương Tâm，这些都是 60、70 年代的音乐。还有许多田野录音，来自世界各地，即将消亡的部落以及人群的音乐，在当今录制的传统音乐。林林总总。我们只想发行好的唱片，我们没有截止日期，也没有发行数量目标——有音乐出现了，我们可以发行的话就会去发行。我们还有其他忙的事情。我们只想用热爱的音乐让厂牌一直存活下去，但没有压力。这不是一门生意，而是我们用以宣传我们所爱的音乐的渠道。

*Baligh Hamdi 和 Phương Tâm 在 Sublime Frequencies 上的发行*

以下为采访英文原文：

“It’s a one-way system: from the West to the rest of the world,” reflects Alan Bishop on the asymmetrical flow of global music. Recounting an invitation to record an introduction for Radio Republik Indonesia (RRI), Bishop recalls RRI’s request to facilitate a radio program exchange with NPR (National Public Radio) in the US. Despite his efforts, NPR dismissed the proposal, a disheartening but not surprising response. However, Bishop was heartened to learn that, today, radio program exchanges thrive among independent internet stations, with many broadcasting Radio Alhara’s Palestine-focused programs encompassing music, discussion and teach-ins.

Bishop’s journey through the musical landscapes began in his Lebanese household, where Arabic melodies filled his childhood. Since the '80s, his travels saw him capturing unique audio landscapes by recording sounds from radio stations in various regions. Now, as co-runner of Sublime Frequencies, the label responsible for introducing artists like Omar Souleyman to western audiences, Bishop’s dedication to music outside the western canon remains unwavering. His quest for diverse auditory experiences stems from a profound search for hope and inspiration and a staunch rejection of cultural homogeneity.

Alan Bishop performed as one of the Dwarfs of East Agouza at the 8th Tomorrow Festival in Shenzhen, China. This conversation took place at Old Heaven Bookstore on the afternoon of May 24th 2024, courtesy of Tomorrow Festival.

Anlin (AL): What is the timeline for your developing interest in the so-called “world music”?

Alan Bishop (AB): I think the beginning would be our grandparents. My brother and I are half Lebanese and our grandparents were always playing Arabic music when we were young. We were listening to their cassettes and albums every time we were at their house, so we had this early understanding of half of my family coming from another place. And we were very curious about the music, although when we were young, it was a little bit boring and we weren't so interested. But as we got older, the more and more that we heard it, certain things became very interesting to us. And I think that was really the jumping point for us to become interested in other music from other areas of the world. Growing up in the US, everything is Anglocentric. US, Canada, and Britain, that was it, that you would hear on the radio. No French, no Spanish, none of this was happening. When we were discovering music from Africa, Asia and South America, we're also discovering music from France, from Germany, from Italy, and so on. By the time we were 18 or 19, we were listening to a lot of music from around the world. And from there it just took off.

AL: You and your brother travelled all over the world in the mid-80s, right? That's when you recorded a lot of the radio series later released on Sublime Frequencies.

AB: Yes, we started in the 80s. 1983 was when we took the first trip to North Africa, Morocco, and Spain, and through Europe. And then we went to Egypt. We also went to Southeast Asia in the 80s, and then kept moving from there. And eventually we were touring; we would go to Japan in the 90s. We were doing shows, even when we're traveling to Southeast Asia and the Middle East as well. And it's continued since then. And the radio collage series started with me in Morocco in 1983 and then continued. Every time I would travel, I would bring a radio. For me, the radio is the key to understanding the music of where you're traveling. I would record things and go to the cassette shop and say, “what is this? I want to buy this”. And then they give me the tapes. And so I’m learning through the radio and also recording and then doing the collage.

AL: For Sun City Girls, you used a lot of like grooves and melodies from the music you have been in contact when you travel right?

AB: This is always part of our way of operating, but many other things, too. This was what I call one weapon of expression, mixed with so many other things. We were just free to do what we want to do. All of us. We all have different ideas, but when we come together as a unit, we can understand each other's obsessions. We were all very obsessed with many different things and incorporating it into our universe, and so it was very open and limitless.

AL: Where does this obsession come from?

AB: Good question. I think, obsession to me is when you feel very strongly about something and you want to continue to develop it. So it can be an obsession as a hobby or as an art or a philosophy. And for us, I think we include all of these…We want to know more and more and more about everything that we're interested in. Before the internet in the 1980s, we were young, and if we wanted to find out about, for example, music from Java or Bali, we would have to get books. You have to read and you have to get records and you have to listen. We were like students. But we were also our own school. We didn't have anyone to teach us, and we have to teach ourselves like this. And you meet a lot of people who you learn from also. This is what I mean by obsession—being very strongly interested in something, so you believe and you want to do more and more. It's motivation and inspiration.

AL: What are the other “weapons of expression” for Sun City Girls?

AB: We love folk music and we were always looking at ways of expanding folk music even electrically. And also jazz, and free jazz, and free form music. And performance art, theatre. We would also do Musique concrète, sound for sound’s sake, noise. Basically, the music was always changing every time we do a concert. We had to train our audience to accept change. So if they come and they want to hear something that they heard before, maybe it doesn't come. We do something else. But eventually they would respect this, and they would also expect it to be different. We still had an audience, but they believed in our freedom, so it was a great situation for us.

AL: I saw in the liner notes of a Habibi Funk release of a Lebanese artist named Issam Hajali that he was mentioning how Lebanese people struggle with their identity, with identifying as an Arab. He talked about this because there were right wing Lebanese who collaborated with Israel in the Lebanese Civil War…Have you experienced anything like this?

AB: I think it's it varies. Maybe there are some who have a struggle with their identity, but I think there're many others that don't. Identity is identity; you make it what you want. It’s really up to the individual to decide how they feel about anything. The Lebanese are very keen on expanding their reality and moving out in the world. They're very business-minded, economy-minded. And so you have a large population of Lebanese people around the world that is much bigger than the amount that are still in Lebanon. A huge population in South America and North America. And there are many Lebanese in West Africa, in Nigeria. They're very creative at reinventing themselves.

I find it ironic because when I moved to Egypt, a lot of my Lebanese music friends asked me, why didn't I move to Lebanon? And I said, well, it's not Egypt. Egypt is so much more than Lebanon. Also, my brother and I are from a Lebanese Druze family—we're not religious Druze, but from the bloodline—and the Druze originally came from Egypt. So, in essence, we are originally more aligned with Egypt than we are with Lebanon. Lebanon is a more modern state because the Druze jcame out of Egypt and went to what is called Sham, which is Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, this area, and some of them went to Iraq and to Persia. So they split, but they came from the area around the Nile, around the Delta, around Cairo, this area originally.

AL: Coming back to radio. Are you still carrying a radio with you?

AB: Not on this trip actually. I forgot to bring it. We went to Canada and then back home for one day and then came (to China). However, when I’m going to a new country, I will still bring it, but usually I’m staying for a longer time to get more source material. I will be so busy here; I have a few days and there's not enough time to realistically try to do a Chinese radio mix, maybe again in the future. I did some collage work in Egypt fairly recently, and I haven't released it yet, and I have other ones that I have to edit. There's no shortage of material, and I will collect more as time goes. Still active, I love it.

AL: Have you noticed any changes in like the music played on radio? I love radio, but the radios I pay attention to are the internet radios. For example, there’s a Palestinian internet radio based in Bethlehem called Radio Alhara, but I haven't listened to any FM radios in Palestine like you did…

AB: Everything is changing. I was recording radio over 40 years ago, and what was going on in the radio then is not going on now. The music changes, the styles of the time change. You still have shows of old traditional music on radio and you can get older music. But the way the news is presented, the advertisements, the talk shows…all of these kind of modernized as time goes on, but it depends on where you are.

The beautiful thing about radio, as opposed to listening to the internet, which is great because you can access on your laptop, you can go to Radio Garden or one of these sites and you can get most of these stations now, when 10 or 15 years ago, there was a problem to get the connection to some of these stations. But when you have an analog radio and you're recording to a cassette, it's situational because you are in the location and that's the only location that you can get these sounds. I’m also interested in the more experimental sounds from the radio. When you have multiple channels crossing each other, creating one different sound, this is quite unique everywhere you go. There's some great combinations of possibilities that you can use in your compositions and performance. It's great source material, the radio is a great electronic source device, actually. But things are changing and they're always going to change. Reception changes. Now there's so many frequencies in any urban area, that during the day you have a problem to find AM stations. You can always find FM, but AM is better at night, because there's less competition for the frequency range. In the past, you could receive AM quite easily during the day, but now it's very difficult. So many things have changed.

AL: When I listen to a radio in China on a taxi or something, I hear mostly pop songs from maybe one or two decades ago. I feel like the music played on the radio isn't actually what people are keeping up with, like the music on the radio is not progressing anymore because of the internet. Have you noticed anything similar?

AB: In Egypt, you have this phenomenon. You have multiple stations with different programming. In some stations, you're living in 1950s to 1960s to 1970s by listening to Umm Kulthum, Abdel Halim Hafez and the old Arabic orchestras. They play it all day long. The older taxi drivers love this station, so you get in and you're in his world. At night you get the younger taxi drivers, they're listening to Maharaganat, which is this electro shaabi, modern, crazy wedding music, festival music. Super intense, very loud, very crazy stuff, and that's their reality. You do have the channels that play the 80s hits, the 90s hits. You have the modern stuff, you can get western music. It all depends on the station. You have other programming as well—just like anywhere, you have news, you have talk, you have different shows that relate to different topics. Of course, in Egypt, you have the Koran playing on the radio a lot as well. The new popular music is so one dimensional to me and to many of my friends anyway, it's not interesting to listen to. I think a lot of other people in different age groups who feel the same, so they will fall back on the periods that they love to listen to. Because the new popular, top 40 or whatever music will not provide them with anything of inspiration, so they have to find inspiration on the radio.

AL: I have some questions regarding Sublime Frequencies—when you release music from places outside the west, do you expect it to become successful in the west? I’m thinking of the case of Omar Souleyman.

AB: No, we did not expect Omar to be successful. We had no idea what to think about any of it, really. Even if we have someone like Omar, it was a bigger sensation because of the touring. Once we found a way to get him on tour, then his popularity grew from festivals in Europe, in America, and then it just went somewhere else. And he's really the only one on the label that has had this kind of reaction. It was a strange timing or the luck or whatever you want to make it. Maybe because it’s more electronic, it was more dance, more modern yet with the traditional style, and his personality, his charisma on stage, there is a novelty to it. Perhaps these reasons led to him being more of a popular artist, but we never know who is going to like what. We are doing what we want to do, first. Then if people like it, great.

And we never make enough copies to make it popular. The most we've ever pressed for initial release is 2,000. Sometimes we have a repress, but it’s very rare. Mostly it's 1,000 and sometimes 750 or 500 or 1,500, so there's not enough records to make anyone popular. And we're not networking with the industry, because we don't really like this kind of operation. We have our small group of friends and family and people who are working with us that are close to us. Sometimes outsiders can come in and we will accept submission. Sometimes the artists want more, but we tell them, “Don't expect to be famous from us. You're not gonna make a lot of money. Nobody will make money. It will not change our lives financially, but we love what we do. We would love to include your music,” and they can say yes or no. We don't have a staff. We don't have a huge responsibility of trying to promote things. We're artists ourselves, we're all musicians, and we have our own creative side, so this is more a like a hobby or inspiration for us.

AL: I was actually reading this book by Jace Clayton, who also goes by another name DJ /rupture.

AB: DJ /rupture, I know him.

AL: He was actually talking about Omar’s success in his book Uproot: Travels in 21st-Century Music and Digital Culture. He was saying prior to the Sublime Frequencies release, there were virtually no dabke fans around him who knew about Omar Souleyman. So how did you choose to release this artist?

AB: Mark Gergis was the one who made everything happen for Omar. He was traveling to Syria in the 90s and early 2000s. He was collecting cassettes and he found many cassettes by Omar Souleyman and he started to listen to them. And then when Sublime Frequencies started, maybe 2 years after that, he proposed to us that “I have compiled this set of songs from Omar Souleyman. Listen to it. I’m going to Syria. If you want, I can ask him if he wants to do a release. And we can try to do a release, if you're interested.” So we listened and we were interested. Mark went and then Omar said yes, and we released it and then it was okay. But it was really about the touring—a promoter in the UK decided they would try to raise funding for a tour, then when Omar started performing, it went crazy. And then people started to understand this this newer form of dabke music. Mark could have chosen another singer, not Omar, and maybe it would have been somebody else, but he loved Omar’s music, and this is why Omar got this release.

AL: So it’s quite arbitrary, would you say?

AB: Everything is. It's not everyone likes the same music. We all have our favorites and we try to navigate towards the music we love. Because then we can believe in it, we can talk about it, and we can justify that we want to release it—because we love it. If you don't love it, then there's a problem. And this is the way of the label. There is no formula. There's no template on what would be something we would release. When we hear it, we know. Luckily, Hisham (Mayet) and I agree on 99% of the music that we love, and other friends as well. It makes things a lot easier when you have agreement—you're one force instead of splits and arguments and problems. We don't have this fortunately.

AL: If viewing from a broader angle, would you say artists outside the west are at the mercy of the western labels to be or not be the representative of the culture or the scene or the genre?

AB: I don't know about that. Obviously some of them will do a record with the western label and then be at the mercy of how the label promotes them. But they're all potentially able to do their own releases and (decide) whether or not they feel the need to have a western audience hear them. To break into the western audience, you have to have some kind of a door, somehow, to get in, and I’m sure there are ways that they have broken through at times to block out having to work with a western label. There are ways in now, there are people everywhere from every nationality. I also think today it's much easier to find music than before, but there is a controlled aspect of the industry and a controlled aspect of framing. It shouldn't have to be this way—but if we're releasing music from Iraq or music from India or somewhere to a western audience through a western label like ours, people always feel they need to have context. They want to know who they are, where they're from. Maybe this is something that they're very interested in, and they would rather know who they are and the story behind it then to just put the name of the artist, song titles, here you go. That doesn't satisfy most people. So you're almost trapped and having to play this game of marketing to give context behind a story, behind the artist. Anytime something's new and it's from somewhere else, it seems to be necessary, then the journalists become more interested, then they might write about it and then the radio stations might play it, and the record stores might carry it. They have a story that can go with the music, and otherwise maybe they don't order the music, they don't write about it. So it's a trap in a way.

AL: Why don’t you like this game?

AB: It would just be nicer if we didn't always have to frame it in the extra dimension of politics or this kind of realm, because it should be interesting enough that it's music, whether or not they had to make this music under a war situation or maybe without as much money. You're taking away from the music and putting the focus on the other stuff. But why did we want to release it? Because of the music. We don't want to release it because they're from Iraq. OK, you're talking about the cover art and the way they look and where they're from and they fought during this war. But what about the music? The music gets lost in this context. That's the problem. In the same way, do we ask, let's take a major artist, say Bob Dylan or the Rolling Stones, what was it like for Bob to grow up in Minnesota in the mining town? About every album he puts out, he's a guy that does American folk music. Maybe they look at his personality because everybody knows about it now. Maybe in other countries, they have to frame it the same way we would have to frame musicians from outside the west. But the music always suffers. And talking about the music is the most important thing for us, because the music gives ideas to other musicians, it influences them to create their own music or new music by incorporating these ideas into their own operating system of music. So it can only enhance the potential growth and evolution in music. This is, to us, a very important thing.

AL: I think it's harder to talk about music than talking about the social and cultural background.

AB: That's true. And instead of wanting to get informed to talk about music, people would easily talk about the other stuff because it's everywhere—it's the fashion or the politics or the design or the story. These are easier for people to understand than to actually get into the roots of the music and how it's played, the expressive nature of the sound, and what it does to inspire you, what kind of feelings you have when you hear it, and how you can observe this music, listen to it, incorporate it. I think it's hard because it's not encouraged, and the other things are encouraged. And in a way, they're kind of a smokescreen to the essence of what that music can do to you, to inspire you. Because that's what it's about–the music inspiring you to feel a certain way. We can be inspired by their politics and their clothing, their food, their culture, but that's fine, but the music has more power than all of them. It's true expression.

AL: But music, the aesthetics of it, is also a historical fact, I think. Everything comes from something else…

AB: There's a traditional element of each region in the world. And as it moves forward, that region is incorporating sounds that are coming from outside. And then you have hybrid styles which are fascinating, and sometimes they only last for 1 year or 2 years in popular music in that area. And then they move on to something else because another trend or style comes and then they incorporate that. It’s fascinating to look at this timeline as well, and to follow it and see how it develops, which happens everywhere.

AL: I remember some of the Sublime Frequencies releases talk about how local folk musicians starting to add in western instruments and electrify the music, et cetera. When a place becomes more “modernized” and urbanized, with a maturing music industry, would people turn more to western genres?

AB: What supports the western genres and sends them out into the world is a powerful force. They have the money, they have the infrastructure, they have the media to move this stuff around the world, whereas, for example, Sumatra is not able to push Sumatran music to America, but America can push American music to Sumatra. So this is a disadvantage in that you are cheated by not being able to easily understand or know about something elsewhere. When you're studying music and you would like to know, and when you hear it, you go, why did I not hear this before? This is 50 years old? I wish I could have heard this when I was young, it may have shaped my way of thinking about music differently. But it's sort of a war of information, and the war of information includes music and includes who gets to hear what music and what music is more powerful in their influence than others. This was never different, there isn't really a change.

The change is that you get the newest things coming all the time, you know, formats—music files are the format of choice now for many people, and most of young people, because physical CD, cassette, LP are not as widespread, not as easy to deal with. We have our electronics and we can easily have files to play anywhere. Also styles and trends and the encouragement of some kinds of music versus other kinds of music, (these things are changing). It's very difficult to find support for jazz music and experimental music, which is always the case. Now with everything so electronic, there are also more musicians today than there ever were. So if you're young and you have a new recording, it's very difficult to fight against all the other ones. There's so much competition, and you almost really have to pay to get heard. It's really hard, but I think if musicians don't concern themselves with being famous or making money, and they believe in what they do, this is the best. Because then they will make the most honest material and it will translate to other people. And you don't need to make a living in music or to be famous. There's the entertainment world, and then there's the musical world, and they're really two different things.

AL: So you’d make this distinction between musicians and entertainers?

AB: Technically we're all entertainers, but you know what I mean. The industry of entertainment—it's where the money and the promotion and the radio play and the big distribution and all of this power centered, which is more related to mind control or social engineering than it is to expressing your feelings and thoughts on a normal personal level. They don't really care about that. I think they really care about selling products and you're just a commodity. So don't be a commodity. Be a musician, express yourself in your own personal way, and don't be afraid to say what you think or play what you feel.

AL: You had a piece on Attic Mag giving out advice for young musicians, and you talked about not relying on music for a living or surviving.

AB: Yeah, that piece’s got a lot of mileage actually. It's been published in many other places since and people seem to like this. I was being a little bit arrogant and funny, but in a way I truly believe in all of it, for me anyway. That was my perspective, but many people seem to resonate with it, so it's very nice.

AL: It definitely resonates with me. Well, so what kind of jobs have you done to support yourself?

AB: A million jobs. Clerk, petrol station, record labels, record stores, restaurants, cafes, cook, prep cook, dishwashing…all of these. I worked at a map shop. I grew up in my parents’ army navy store. That's how my brother and I first started to discover businesses as children, working for our parents. During the Christmas break, in the summer, our friends are having fun and we're in the shop working. I was a ticket broker and…many things I can't even remember. Too many jobs.

AL: I've got one last question-over the years of the releasing artist on Sublime Frequencies, from my understanding, there were more old musicians or archival releases in the past, but there seem to be more contemporary musicians recently?

AB: I think more contemporary musicians are finding us and there's some that we really like, so we'll do it. There're still a lot of older music projects that are in the works. We have also been releasing some recently—Baligh Hamdi and Phương Tâm, these are from the 60s and 70s. And a lot of field recordings, music from various regions in the world, tribes and local communities that are going to be lost, traditional styles of music that are recorded today. It's always a mix. We just want to put out good records, and we don't have a deadline for anything, we don't have an amount that we want to do—when something comes, and we can do it, we do it. And we're also busy doing other things. We just want to keep the label alive with what we love, with no pressure. It’s not really like a business, it’s just something that we can promote music that we love to listen to with.

立足于厦门的独立唱片店，专注于挖掘最值得收藏的黑胶唱片。以世界音乐和律动音乐为出发点，横跨 Jazz、Funk、Hip-hop 到 Ambient 等诸多风格，更有从 1930 年代到如今，受到民族音乐启发的诸多 Alternative 音乐类型。店内除了有全场黑胶唱片的试听，也提供咖啡及酒水饮料，并不定期举办演出、派对等音乐活动。
***我们追随过时的潮流，收集落入历史中的声音碎片。***

文本信息 Text Information
来源 Source：离岛对话 Alan Bishop: 不要成为商品，而是成为一个音乐人
采访 & 撰文 Interviewing & Contributing：Anlin